Christine> Hello Vagrants, and welcome to another dispatch from Xija Station. We’ve got another fantastic interview to share with you this week. We had the chance to talk with Paul du Toit, the man who made Commander Lazaro such a presence on our screens. We recorded this interview prior to episode 10, so if you have not watched that far yet, be warned because there are spoilers a-plenty here. We really enjoyed having an in-depth conversation with Paul about what makes Lazaro who he is, what makes this fantastic show Vagrant Queen what it is, and that is just one part of everything we discussed. We hope you enjoy listening to this interview with Paul.
[Theme music]
Christine> Paul du Toit is a household name on television in South Africa, where Vagrant Queen was filmed. His career’s taken him through television, film, and theater, but of course, all of you listening to the podcast know him best as Commander Lazaro. Welcome to the podcast, Paul.
Barbie> Welcome to the podcast.
Paul> Hey Christine, Hey Barbie, how’s it going?
Barbie> It’s going great.
Christine> Oh, it’s going great.
Paul> Good.
Barbie> So we are just going to go ahead and get right into this. We are asking our guests, what is your favorite planet, real or fictional?
Paul> Well, I have to say, boring choice, but I have a fantastic view of Venus right now in the sky. And the evening star has always been a favorite of mine, so it would have to be Venus.
Barbie> Good answer.
Christine> Fantastic answer.
Barbie> Yeah, it’s great. So we’ve had some questions about the constant blood splatter, mostly my questions. So you have blood on your face, often. How did that come about and whose idea was it?
Paul> Well, you know, Jem Garrard, the showrunner, and it may have been Mags Vissagio’s primal scream, but the turning the comic book into the television show was all Jem. And Jem is a pretty bloodthirsty lady! [Barbie and Christine laugh] And any possible opportunity to have blood flying around. I mean, you just have to see the body count in the last episode, and the episode before that as well.
Christine> Goodness gracious.
Barbie> I mean, which one is it not?
Paul> It’s kind of like living in Cabot Cove, when you know Jessica Fletcher pulls in, you know, bodies are going to start falling.
Barbie> Yeah, definitely. So how long did you have to film with that makeup on, per day, average?
Paul> Um, it all sort of depended on what sort of scene you were doing, but generally you’re on set for at least 10-12 hours every day, so they’re long days but this was just such a fun production to work on, man. I felt like a kid in a toy store. You know, it doesn’t feel like work, it feels like you’re in a big giant space theme park. You know, everyone’s walking around dressed as aliens, and there’s cool weapons, and blood. And sometimes the blood isn’t even red, often it’s whatever color the alien’s blood may be. It was just so much fun, time really flew by. There was very little twiddling of our thumbs and being bored of the thing.
Barbie> Great to hear. And real blood, we hear. Occasionally.
Paul> Yeah, you know there were a couple little injuries. But, you know, we all have to suffer for our art, it’s how we make it.
Christine> Well said. So along the lines of the fun on the job, if you will. What really drew you into the role of Lazaro and what’s been your favorite part to play him?
Paul> What was such a joy to play is that most of the other actors spend their time trying to be likable. And trying to get the sympathy of the audience. Where I sort of don’t care about that at all. And I just had to be the very embodiment of evil and what everyone hates about the world. And the universe. Which was just, the greatest fun, but Jem’s script did it with such panache and such a twinkle in the eye and such a self deprecating sense of humor. It was so much so much fun to do. But you know on a slightly more serious note, if we look at what’s going on in the world right now, and being a South African, we were shooting in South Africa, we have an incredible history of leaders, especially under the guise of being liberators, becoming oppressors. And that’s a story that keeps repeating itself, and keeps repeating itself, and keeps repeating itself and we are seeing it right now, again. So that was something we all really connected with on set, and were quite aware of, and myself personally, I connected with it very viscerally and that is for me where the brilliance in the script lies. Yeah, it’s dressed up as a fun snarky space opera, but if you look at what’s being addressed in that way that still lets you have fun, it actually gives you a lot to think about and a lot to reflect on, and that’s what really took the script from what could have been light entertainment to something far deeper and a far superior product to me.
Barbie> Yeah.
Christine> Absolutely.
Barbie> So in the most recent episode that aired in the United States, this past Thursday for us, we got to see Lazaro’s role in that revolution that overthrew the monarchy. What was it like for you to dig into that influential side of Lazaro’s history? And of course now we know his backstory and you kind of touched on how it ties into South African politics.
Paul> Yeah, well, I think it’s not only South African politics, that was Adolf Hitler’s journey. That was Idi Amin’s journey, that was Robert Mugabe’s journey. That was, certainly, the journey of so many South African politicians. But the real fun part about it to me is that it may be these really dark issues being addressed, but it’s written in such a fun way that, it’s like a script tickles you with a razor blade. Certainly in the sense of how my part is written. Which I feel really blessed to have done because most parts weren’t written like that. Most of the parts are there for me to chase, me to go and be mean to. I was the guy to do all of that, which was great fun.
Barbie> We also saw a younger — teenage — Lazaro in some of the flashbacks, played brilliantly by Daniel Lasker. How did you two work together to portray the same character?
Paul> It was actually great that we could connect beforehand and make sure we had the same sort of vocal rhythms, the same sort of intonation, that we could use similar gestures. We spoke very much about how he would use his sulky, teenage attitude that could progress into the younger adult that you see in me. What I really like about this backstory is that, especially now in Episode 9, suddenly for the first time the audience is almost induced to feel sympathy for Lazaro, where up until now they just hated him. Now it starts to mess with the audience’s head, which is absolutely a delight to play with, a gift to an actor, fantastic.
Barbie> Yeah, I can’t even imagine. That’s got to be so much fun.
Paul> Yeah — feels great.
Christine> Absolutely. So you’ve been in acting for a long while, Paul, so I suppose my next question would be, how has playing Lazaro been different from some of the previous roles that you’ve played in the past?
Paul> When it comes to performing, I approach each character and each project completely differently. I don’t have a set method or way of going about things. Where, with this one, because I could see immediately that the script was so thoroughly worked on and so carefully curated, this was really not a slap-dash action pic. It wasn’t that at all. It was far more nuanced, far more interesting, and with lots of intertextual references. You could see that this was the work of someone who loves the genre. It was incredibly well-researched. And audience members that like sci-fi love those little Easter eggs dropped all over the place, they can see the nod to other works that have come before. So, with this one, my way of finding him was to sit with the script and sit with a pen and pencil and just read it and read it and read it, and make these marks and these connections. You shoot these completely out of sequence, of course, so I needed to be very sure of the journey that he goes on. He starts off as this teenager — that’s not me playing him, but Daniel and I certainly spoke about how to do that. Then you see the young adult, who has left behind privilege to join a revolution. He’s bright-eyed, he wanted to change the world, he wants to do the right thing. Then he finds his mission of going after Elida. He still believes in his very core that he is doing the right thing. He does not see himself as a bad person. Then he gets power, and, as we know, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. He doesn’t just literally get power or position, he literally gets infinite power, and what do you do with infinite power? And to what extent does that affect you? For me, my job was to be very clear in my head where I was with him and his idealism, and where does that corruption come in. That’s what I felt was the main job, it was more a literary exercise for me than putting on a character from the outside. It was trying to make sense of where his idealism and the warping of that idealism that comes with power, exactly where he is on that journey. For me that was the most important thing to hang on to.
Barbie> You definitely saw Lazaro’s story as he progressed. And you’re right, he did get a little sympathy, a little tiny nugget of sympathy.
Paul> A tiny little bit.
Barbie> We do have a couple of fan thoughts and questions for you.
Paul> That’s fantastic.
Barbie> From Twitter, Katy says, “Please tell Paul he’s brilliant, but as Lazaro he scares the shit out of me, which I know is your job, but holy shit he does it well!”
Paul> [laughing] Thank you, Katy. That’s very kind of you, thank you, I really appreciate it.
Barbie> The question kind of going off that, we kind of already touched on, but how did you approach playing Lazaro? Like you said, the power…
Paul> For me, I often went back to the idea of Adolf Hitler. Where if you look at Hitler’s paintings, maybe sweet, nice, slightly boring, watercolours. They look like the sort of thing your grandmother would hang on her wall. Even a guy like that who is almost synonymous with absolute evil, didn’t judge himself as being evil. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that he was. But he suffered Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, he lived in severe pain, he was addicted to painkillers, he had very bad teeth, lived in that world. I’ve studied up on just about every kind of despot there is. So there are all these things in his path that you can really feel sorry for. It’s just, the result is kind of… we know, not good. You see that in Stalin, you see that in Idi Amin, you see it in Mugabe as well. It was for me very important, as the actor, never to judge the character. So I never saw him as evil, I never saw him as trying to be evil. I saw him as trying to do the right thing. But we know how perverted that got.
Barbie> Right. [laughing]
Christine> Not to jump in, per se, but I just want to say how wonderful and how refreshing it is to see just how much thought you’ve put into this role. It is wonderful to see.
Paul> Thank you. But, like I say, if it’s not on the page, it’s not on the stage, and luckily I had a gift of a script and a gift of a character. Kudos must go to the creators, the showrunner, Jem, and director — I mean, Jem did everything. Mags Vissagio came up with this idea. She actually came onto set as well, it was wonderful — it was like Frankenstein’s monster meeting Doctor Frankenstein. “Oh, hi! Thanks for dreaming me up!”
Barbie> Did you read the comic before you took the role?
Paul> This one?
Barbie> That’s the one.
Paul> Absolutely! Obviously, being at the southern tip of Africa here, we don’t have a big comic culture, so I literally had to import the comic. But that was for me, absolutely non-negotiable. That’s the primal scream. That’s the seed that grew into the plot, you know, that grew into the tree. I obviously had to read that. And luckily my youngest child is an absolute sci-fi nut, there I was picking a ten-year-old’s brain. “Okay, explain this stuff to me.” And he would say, “Okay, Boomer, let’s unpack it for you.”
[all laughing]
Christine> Oh, my goodness. So moving back to stuff on set, since we have been talking a bit about that, @staylor111 asks if you’ve worked before with the other actors who played the Admiralty, especially Robyn. She says, “They played so well off of each other.”
Paul> Robyn is one of my oldest, dearest friends. I have known her since the very early 90s. Literally, I think, Robyn and I met, must have been, 1993. So, yeah, we’ve worked together many times, we’ve had a lot of interesting memories together, we’ve had a lot of good times together. And she’s just – when she’s in full sail and in the zone and playing these characters, she has this incredible ability to do really big, over-the-top characters completely believably. She’s an absolute joy to work with. All you have to do is listen to her and react, and you’re on the money. She’s fantastic to work with. And yes, she’s a great friend — I’m glad people could pick up on that chemistry.
Barbie> It’s amazing. We hope maybe one day we can have Robyn on our podcast.
Paul> She’d be a hoot!
Barbie> So @HaughtNess on Twitter asked, “What do you think of live-tweeting during the episodes and how has it been interacting with fans?”
Paul> I find the feedback from the fans really encouraging. It’s fantastic to get that immediate feedback during the live tweet. The strange thing about television and film is that you are deprived of audience participation. On set, the crew has to keep completely quiet. When you’re on stage, you can feel your audience, you can feel the impact, you can hear applause, you can hear laughter, you can feel the uncomfortable shifting in chairs, and it becomes a dialogue between you and the audience. When you’re being broadcast, obviously you don’t get that. The great thing about live-tweeting is, suddenly, you can feel that. You can see them engaging and following your story, and they go on the journey with you, which is obviously wonderful to be part of. That being said, I am a complete technophobe. I am useless on a device, I’m absolutely useless. So I kept saying, “It’s so fast, I can’t keep up with everyone!”
Barbie> Nobody can.
Christine> Yeah, nobody can.
Paul> Again, I had to get my kids to show me how the hashtags work. I’m a little bit stupid when it comes to that.
Barbie> We’ll forgive you. I do have to springboard. Knowing Tim, he kind of has an instant fan base over here, were you prepared for all of the Earpers?
Paul> I only heard about the phenomenon when I got onto set. I immediately watched Wynonna Earp and said, “Oh, this is amazing!” Then I came across the Earpers - wow, that is a whole bucket of ?? all by itself. They’re amazing. They are so supportive, they are vocal, they are loud, they are in your face, passionate. It’s been wonderful to have them on our side. I feel like I pitched up in a futbol team with all the big guys on my team, you know? Kind of saying, “Don’t worry, we’ve got your back. You guys will be alright. The Earpers are behind you.” The Earpers are fantastic, I really have to say thank you to them.
Barbie> Well, I’m sure they appreciate it.
Christine> Oh, yup. On a completely different note, @ArtsyMagician wants to know who besides Lazaro, of course, your favourite villain is.
Paul> Wow. Jeepers. If I look at the greats, if I had to choose one, probably Christoph Waltz in Inglourious Bastards. He managed to combine the almost paradoxical element of being likeable and completely terrifying at exactly the same time. And with absolute ease, you never felt like he was trying to scare anyone. He was this nice guy asking for a glass of milk, while he’s waiting to kill someone, with this big grin on his face. And at the same time, completely believable. That was, for me, a completely genius moment of performance.
Barbie> It all depends on the actor to bring it home.
Christine> Yeah.
Barbie> It’s a sign to watch that. Tammy Rodell wants to know if the line, “Mothers, am I right?” was a throwaway line or was there something more into it, now that we have a view of Lazaro’s upbringing.
Paul> There is nothing in Jem Garrard’s script that is a mistake. Everything is there for a very specific reason. And an intertextual reference like that, it’s true weight only makes sense later on. And it was in Elida’s hallucination that she saw Lazaro in Isaac’s outfit saying, “Moms, am I right? Aren’t Moms cool?” And of course, only later on the audience finds out that this is a guy who executed his mother, and at that stage they also believe that he executed Elida’s mother. So, the double-entendre in that line is definitely intended. I’m glad you can pick up on it.
Barbie> Well, I don’t take any of that credit, it was all Tammy.
Paul> Thank you, Tammy!
Barbie> @AngieReads1 asks, I wonder how much Lazaro was influenced by having an abusive parent, and did he use the revolution to make himself ruler of the galaxy?”
Paul> I think the abusive parenting is pivotal in creating who he was. It’s that sort of abuse, that which you resist the most, persists the most. If you were to turn around to Lazaro and say, “You have become like your father,” he would be absolutely horrified. But we know — this is how human beings behave — the sins of the father are visited on the children. He has that from his father, that cruelty and that abuse. And his mother, obviously, was that one beacon of light in his life. The generals of The Republic made very sure that that was extinguished, in the most painful way possible to him. He is extremely damaged goods. In my head, the only way that I think he knows how to relate to people is through pain. It’s kind of like that thing, I’d rather feel pain than nothing at all. I don’t think he knows how to feel anything else except pain. His only way of connecting with people is by hurting them. He’s not doing it because he wants to be mean, that’s how he connects with people. So, that sort of dysfunctionality caused by parental abuse I think is absolutely pivotal in creating the psychosis that he suffers from.
Barbie> What was it like, kind of changing gears, what was it like getting to work with the cast and the crew, and do you have a favourite filming experience?
Paul> The cast and crew were, of course, absolutely fantastic. What was really nice is that so many of us cast members were really old friends. For example, Grant Swanby, who plays my Dad, is also a really good mate of mine. We’ve done many projects together, both theatre and film. He’s a hell of a nice guy and there’s a lot of trust between us. So we could go to those dark and dangerous places because we didn’t have to spend a couple of days getting to know each other on set. We’d already arrived with a sense of camaraderie, with a sense of knowing each other, with a sense of trust. Which, the strange thing about film, is often the people that you work with you only meet that day, on the set. Finish your scene and then off they go and you never see them again. Where, we were able to, just socialising over a couple of drinks, to be able to speak about what it is that we’re doing, how we feel these characters must work. Because we’re mates, we could give each other tips, and give each other suggestions, and also have the courage to say, “No, I don’t like your idea, I’m not going to go with that.” Just already like that, we were a couple of steps ahead into the project, by virtue of the fact that we knew each other. So, in that sense, it was absolutely fantastic, it was like a reunion with a bunch of old friends.
Barbie> I get the sense that it might be a little like Canadian television, with the same pool of actors that gets to work together often.
Paul> Yeah.Very much so. There are a lot of advantages to that, I think. We all know each other, we all trust each other. We can lead the person we’re playing off of well because we know each other so well.
Christine> Kind of going off of that, on the whole, what’s made being part of Vagrant Queen a unique experience for you?
Paul> Unique, in the sense that I’ve never done it before, was to be given a character that has a journey that is that significant and has that much change over the ten episodes. He really has such a large journey. When you go to an audition, you often don’t really know what it is you’re auditioning for. You’ll get the sides for the scene that you’re reading for, but that’s all you’ve got to go on. So I know when I auditioned, I got that scene where he arrives on Xija Station. “Greetings, citizens of Xija! I know, it’s highly irregular…” and he walks in and cuts the manager’s hair. I got that, and I kind of read it and thought, “Well, this guy is really strange.” But I didn’t really know why. But then, when I got the full script, and it was literally a book that thick. As I was reading through it, “Oh, my word. He does what? No way!” And the story just kept getting better and better, and the journey kept expanding. That’s really been a first one for me. To have a journey that changes, the character changes so much, his demeanor, his way of addressing people, the growth. So that’s just, personally, from an acting point of view, been such a gift. It’s been a first.
Barbie> So I know -- That’s awesome to hear.
Christine> Absolutely.
Barbie> I know Vagrant Queen has been a breath of fresh air for queer and people of color fans. How has being a part of a show with such positive representation been for you?
Paul> I think one of the big strengths of the show is that it kind of picks up where other sci fi shows have finished and taken it further in terms of inclusivity, in terms of pushing the envelope of sexuality, in terms of people of color being included. That certainly given, as we talked about at the beginning of the interview, what’s going on in the world right at the moment. It just makes a show like this so much more important. I know my kids love it and I watch it with my kids and to see my kids seeing it as completely normal is just so refreshing. They don’t see it. Only us old people that see this as something making a statement. They see it through their fresh eyes and just accept that this is normal. Of course everyone’s included. Of course no one is excluded, of course everyone is equal. Why wouldn’t they be? It’s so interesting hearing that truth coming out of their mouths. And it’s wonderful that through entertainment, through the medium of television, we can hopefully play our own small part in bringing about a bigger change that, I think we all know, the world needs badly. Luckily we are able to do it in a way where no one gets hurt. The revolution can happen without pain in our medium. And I just wish it could be like that all the time.
Barbie> Kind of in that same vein, the show has a female showrunner, female writers, female directors, what’s different about working on a show that employs so many women?
Paul> I think there’s a certain finesse that comes with having a female driven show. There’s a certain focus on the humanity of the characters and of the story. There’s a gentleness that comes -- often the film world can be quite an old boys’ club. It can be quite, what’s the word I’m looking for, it can be very - when there’s a lot of testosterone going around on set it can be quite base. I think base is the word I’m looking for. With having a female showrunner, female directors, female scriptwriters, female powerful leads, there’s a panache and a sensitivity that comes with the storytelling that I think the story really benefits from. Things are looked at in a more complex manner as opposed to “Yeah, he’s a bad guy, let’s kill him.” It’s handles with more finesse, which I think the story only benefits from.
Christine> Oh absolutely. The impacts really can’t be understated.
Paul> No. And what a wonderful way to be able to make a difference in the world. Because we are all enjoying ourselves and these progressive ideas are being put out there, but so gently, and with so much entertainment behind it that I think it’s the breath of fresh air that the world could really use right now.
Barbie> For sure.
Christine> Absolutely no doubt about that. So of course as we’re recording this the end of the Vagrant Queen season is right around the corner so of course Vagrants have been fighting for the show with the hashtag #RenewVagrantQueen. What message do you have for the Vagrants out there who are fighting so hard for this wonderful show?
Paul> Well I think, amongst other reasons for the reasons we’ve just spoken about, I think the world needs more work like this. Not just the Sci Fi genre, but in all genres, female voices need to be heard, people of color need to be heard and if we can do it with this sort of gentleness and this panache and that depends on having this much fun and giving this much entertainment I think we all win. So to the Vagrants out there keep the fight up guys, we really appreciate it and we've got your backs, promise you.
Christine> And along similar lines, what would you like to see out of a theoretical Vagrant Queen season two?
Paul> Oh, I mean I fell so in love with this character and it took me a long time to sort of - because you don’t want to force the issue - but it was at one of the lunchtimes. I walked up to Jem, and I said “alright,” Jem Garrard, our director and showrunner, “Jem, we have to talk. There has to be a season 2 and I NEED to be in it. What what what do we have to do, how do we make this happen? This is just so much fun, I can’t let go of this baby, this has to come back.” So, all we can do is keep fighting out there and keep stating that this is something that we think should happen, and could happen, and let’s see what comes out in the wash at the end of the day, but it would certainly be a very happy day for me when season two is announced.
Barbie> For us, too.
Christine> It’d be a happy day for all of us.
Barbie> So we spoke with Tim earlier and he said you are quite an avid surfer.
Paul> Well, I live on the beach, my one son is also just as addicted to the water as I am. Yeah, we live in the ocean and it’s a very important source for us, it balances us, it’s where we go to find God, it’s where we go so the demons can stop screaming in our heads. It’s a wonderful lifestyle. We actually got out of the water just as the sun was setting now I had to sort of had to bring the kid down, let the adrenaline go off, get some food in them so they can get to bed and get up for school in the morning, but it’s a wonderful lifestyle, a wonderful life sport that he can have for the rest of his life. Certainly something I’ve carried with me my whole life. If I travel, I take my surfboard with me. I like to see the countries I go to from the water, looking back at the land. It’s an interesting different perspective to get on most places.
Barbie> That sounds amazing.
Christine> Absolutely.
Barbie> I live in the middle of the US, smack dab, I live in Minnesota, but we have - I live in Northern Minnesota, so we have Lake Superior, not quite the same. However we do have the crazies that will surf in the blizzards because the waves get so big.
Paul> Yeah, I’ve seen these guys. That’s absolutely nuts. There’s ice in the water, they’ve got icicles hanging off their beards, and that is next level crazy. I mean we have cold water here, and I wear wet suits, and we’ve got a bit of a shark situation which you always have to be on the lookout for, but we don’t have icebergs to deal with that’s just terrifying.
Barbie> Oh, see, no sharks so we’re good.
Christine> It all balances out.
Paul> [Laughing] Yeah, yin and yang, absolutely.
Barbie> So, do you have any final thoughts, anything you’d like to share with our listeners?
Paul> Well I think what I would like to say is that one thing I didn’t expect was the engagement from the Vagrants. They’ve been so supportive and the wonderful, crazy, out there, beautiful energy with which they’ve received us and they’ve been so welcoming, they’ve been so enthusiastic, they get what it is - the messages that the show is trying to bring across. Accepting everyone no matter who they are, no matter what they are, no matter their beliefs are, their colors, their creed, their sexual orientation, we’re all just part of the same big human race and to see it reflected in a fanbase like that has been one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever experienced in my career. I really would like to say an honest big thank you to the Vagrants out there: you guys have been absolutely amazing and without you this journey just wouldn’t have been the same.
Barbie> Yeah, well we Earpers, we love our actors, so be prepared to be followed into your next projects.
Paul> Fantastic, Earpers, thank you man.
Barbie> So where can your fans find you on social media?
Paul> I am on insta at paulie_du_toit, you can find me on facebook, you can find me on Twitter paul_du_toit again.
Barbie> I want to say thank you so much for joining us, it has been an absolute delight, and we are hoping to see more of Lazaro in season two.
Christine> Fingers crossed.
Paul> And toes. Thank you very much Barbie, and thank you Christine, this has been great fun.
Christine> Of course, and thank you to our listeners for joining us. Until next time, this has been a transmission from another galaxy … not yours.
[End theme]
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